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murder should never be justified. therefore government should not be given the right to kill. It is barbaric.. That is why it has been outlawed in Europe, Canada and the rest of the developed world. The US is the only developed or democtratic country that still reserves "its right to kill" its own citizens. And the system activily utilizes "its right" and continues to kill its delinquent citizens.

Not only that but if you look at the US justice's history - There have been many mistakes made in the system where innocent people have been wrongly prosecuted. The system can NEVER be 100% accurate... at best it is 99%. Even with DNA testing. And that means there is still a 1% chance of an innocent person being killed by the system. So, I believe we should not leave any doors opened giving such an imperfect system the right to kill. Imagine yourself, or a loved one wrongly accused and punished with Death for a crime you did not commit.

Let God be the ultimate judge.. Get this people off the street and put them in prison so they won't harm anybody else.. But as for taking their life, who are we to kill? Like Rahel said earlierr, we are not living in the "eye for an eye" era anymore.... we are supposed to be civilized people.I"m sorry to pick on you brother but since this topic was brought up under Spiritual section and you seem to have the same ideology as the pente churchs - I have a question for you.

Why is it that most of the strong supporters of the death penality in America are Protestants and Evangilist churchs? Instead, shouldn't the house of Christ be advocating forgivness and mercy?

Why are the American Evangilist so eager to kill people weather it is through capital punishment or war? Should these people be makers of peace instead?But in other hand, NAS you brought out a good point. The government shouldn't have the right to kill, after all they are saying that you have no right to kill anyone and if you do kill that they are going to kill you after a court trial. and that is very self contradicting. but in other hands why should convicted killers be allowed to stay alive and serve their entire live in prison after taking someone elses live? miller wrote:yes yes yes. there is a God who is ready to forgive them if they would accept the sacrifice he made at the cross. that is the great part about christianity.


I’m just glad u didn’t miss that part when u read your bible.

my answers are in quote break.

If u’re looking for an answer from me.. u are barking on the wrong dog my man.

[quote="miller"]




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IN GOD WE TRUST!

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

Miller,

With all due respect to you opinion, I cannot understand it enough to accept it. Basically I have questions about capital punishment to which i cannot find answers.... Here are my questions:

1) If Capital punishment send a messaage to Society and establishes our moral value - why is the US society still with the highest rate of murder in the developed world? What if you're wrong about the message? What if the subliminal message the US society hears is "kill those who are against you -killing is ok." Why else would the US still have the largest numbers of killers within a developed society?

2) You are making it sound like its a moral issue.. Since when is killing moral? Can you fight hate with hate? darkness with darkness? Only love wins over hate, and only light wins over darkness. How can you stop killing with more killing?

3) Mistakes are made in the criminal system. Even at 99%, there is a chance of an innocent person being executed. Why would you ever give an imperfect system the right to kill? I believe Even the chance of 1 innocent person being wrongly accused and executed is big enough to deny the system's right to kill. Even Jesus was wrongly accused and sentenced to the Death Penality - an innocent man wrongly executed by a system.

4) The strongest supports of the death penality in America are the Right Wing religioust who are mostly evangilist. How can the same person that preaches to me about love & forgiveness also preaches to me about justifying murder for murder (eye for an eye)? Isn't this against the message of Christ? As Christ was being tortured and barbericlly executed on a cross, did he pray out to God asking himt to kill them? Not at all. Instead, he prayed for their forgivness. That's the true message of Christ.

thank you for your question.







the first problem is your assumption about capital punishment is wrong. capital punishment is not intended to send a message to society and establish our moral value. that's not it. but capital punishment assume that human beings are free moral agents. They can make choices and they ought to be held responsible for the moral choices they make. if someone violates the law, he will be judged by the law. the government job is to do its fundamental job, not to fund art, or to establish different political agenda, (though it may be necessary, through a democratic process): but the fundamental job of a governement is to protect its people. how? by exercising justice on behalf of its people. you may want to call it murder, but it is not. It isn't the same to kill an innocent person as it is for the state to properly execute someone who is guilty. (what you have is a clear moral distinction) innocent vs. guilty.





it invovles a moral clarity when you fail to make a moral distinction regarding behavior. in this case, killing innocent person is wrong! but instituting capital punishment to deliver justice on behalf of the victim is not only justice but also morally good. oh by the way, if you are against capital punishment, would you prefer if the we had captured Hilter, what kind of punishment would you prefer? jail? where is the justice?





but i don't see how that relates with the issue. of course we can't fight hate with hate. darkness with darkness. but you have forgotten something. there is something called just war. in the 20th century, war has solved so many problems that just your american sentimentalism. it helped to defeat, stalin, hitler, and many cruel people. (i see...you are not objecting WWII. why don't you tell to the people who were in Numberg trial, oh its okay. we can't fight hate with hate. we should just let them go" you have a convolted idea about justice, and the government role in society.




i accept that permise only if you agree that capital punishment is not killing. or at least killing innocent person. the only justifible way to satisfiy justice is by killing. in this case killing is an insturment to deliver justice.

second, if you say that love wins over hate, and we should just forgive the crimnals from capital punishment. then, we can't justify, based on the same reasoning, any punishment whatsoever. [size=18]forgiving criminals because love wins over hate;what that has to do with the question of how the government ought to treat a criminal. in fact it is good to forgive because jesus would forgive sinners. (if they meet his requirment for forgivness), but But If it is true that Jesus would forgive him and that is a good argument against capital punishment in his case, then what are we to do with people who are in prison for life. after all, jesus would forgive them so we should include them in our society. why would we let them in prison? because jesus would forgive him. (i hope you understand my reasoning)[/





i think i made that clear on my previous post. people debate about capital punishment in a different ways. one way is in how they carry out capital punishment. i may have to agree with you in that, we should make every effort to perform DNA test, and i am against racial proprtion when it comes to capital punishment. but, i think what we are arguing is whether capital punishment by nature is right or wrong. so our argument is in principle capital punishment is right or not.


yes, i agree jesus was wrongfully was excuted by what? what system are you talking about? if you talking about 'crucifixtion" then, there was a purpose why christ was crucified in the cross and not get stoned to death. it has a biblical meaning to it. BUT, HONESTLY i am buffled why did you bring that up? if you're thinking that it nullifies capital punishment, then i think you are misguided. in fact, God chose those people to excute the "plan", which means the salvation for human kind. so, i am not following how you make a logical connection between the crucifixtion of christ and capital punishment?





i think i already answered that question. you presupposes the idea that capital punishment is murder. well..it is NOT. [size=18]if it is, then the people in the old testment were wrong? in fact, what you are saying is, God is wrong. because it was him, who instituted capital punishment. (if you wish to search the bible, i advise you to look Gen 9) so does that mean, it was God who justified murder for murder? because God can not do things that contridict his nature. he is all-loving and all-powerful. and all-just. so, if by defintion God is perfect, and if he declared in the old testment that Capital Punishment is right, then we can assume that capital punishment is not murder.

This is what’s wrong with our society today; people have lost their commonsense ability to draw the line between what is politics, religion and humanity. Some are lost somewhere in transaction/ in between what government said, what they think the bible meant and their mind. God give us our mind to think and that is the greatest gift one can ever get. What we do and how right we do with it is left to us.

-Politicians are seizing upon the influence of public support for the death penalty for their own political gain. Do you really think they care about who is alive and who is dead?

-Religion- the problem with some religious people is that their mind is so inflexible, they think they are the only God/true believers and everything they do/say is justified just because (God is on their side). And those are the types of people (with rigged, stubborn, nonflexible mind) that got us in, religion/holly war, suicide bombing, terrorism, racism, slavery, persecutions…etc with which we’ve found our selves in today and in the past. The point is they have no room in their mind to think twice and correct the mistakes. Why? Be cause their mind is not trained to think they may be wrong. (BTW. That is the main reason why I don’t like discussing religion; I’m just trying to make a point here)

~R~

well...first of all, you did not reftue my argument. so i am not going to repeat what i said earlier on my post.

second, i don't understand why you associate my post with the religious right. just because i agree with them on this issue that does not make me a zalot religious holy warrior.

thrid, you fail to make a distinction between a different relgion and you generalize, just trying to make your point. you are making a straw-man argumentation: you construct your point in a way easy enough for you to reftue it.

fourth, the 20the century was the bloodies war ever. but all of those war were created by "secular" worldview. so please cut some slack of religion.


peace.

very good argument miller - here is my response..

The WWII war was in self-defense... there was an active enemy stricking us which needed to be stopped.


They want to give it a different name so they can clear their consiouness but killing is killing - you are still ending a life. And if killing means ending a life, capital punishment is killing. It is a legal way of murder.

You can never justify killing by killing.. You can only justify killing by stopping it.



I didn't say let criminals go. What I'm saying is lock them up so they won't hurt society anymore. Killing them does not undo their crime.


You cannot be SURE. You can NEVER be 100%. Even with DNA testing you can never be sure. Therefore there is always a chance of an innocent person being killed. Is that morally right to you?



Being wrong or right is relative. Relative to their time they were doing what they believed was right. They were uncivilized. We are now a civilized society. We have evolved past eye-for-an-eye.


Again, if Capital punishment was such a good idea - why hasn't it worked in America? Look at Canda and the European Union where they have abolished Capital punishment - they have very little crime compared to the U.S.

..........and you are.............? was i talking to you? Or u just think you fit the description? if so,NAZ is doing a great Job telling you like it is, so, there is no point for me to add any thing…

i let u read it again.....

This is what’s wrong with our society today; people have lost their commonsense ability to draw the line between what is politics, religion and humanity. Some are lost somewhere in transaction/ in between what government said, what they think the bible meant and their mind. God give us our mind to think and that is the greatest gift one can ever get. What we do and how right we do with it is left to us.

-Politicians are seizing upon the influence of public support for the death penalty for their own political gain. Do you really think they care about who is alive and who is dead?

-Religion- the problem with some religious people is that their mind is so inflexible, they think they are the only God/true believers and everything they do/say is justified just because (God is on their side). And those are the types of people (with rigged, stubborn, nonflexible mind) that got us in, religion/holly war, suicide bombing, terrorism, racism, slavery, persecutions…etc with which we’ve found our selves in today and in the past. The point is they have no room in their mind to think twice and correct the mistakes. Why? Be cause their mind is not trained to think they may be wrong. (BTW. That is the main reason why I don’t like discussing religion; I’m just trying to make a point here)

~R~

well if you actually think about it..if they in prison for life...they get to think about what they did wrong and feel guilty all their lifes<--- feeling guilty all their life ain't a good feelin u know. But if they die right away wut good is that and it sho ain't gonna bring the people he/she killed.


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Nobody's good enough, smart enough, cute enough, or successful enough to be acceptable to a just and holy God. But when He looks at us through the eyes of Jesus, we become pleasing in His sight. Jesus is the answer!

you know Thank God he's not like human..

human can be so cruel unforgiving but it's good feeling to have a God that is ready to forgive and forgot as soon as you ask.


_________________
Nobody's good enough, smart enough, cute enough, or successful enough to be acceptable to a just and holy God. But when He looks at us through the eyes of Jesus, we become pleasing in His sight. Jesus is the answer!

lol i know i know this is my third post her...but i had to share this atheist joke...
enjoy....

THE BEAR
An atheist was taking a walk through the woods,admiring all that the "accident of evolution" had created. "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing. He ran even faster, so scared that tears were coming to his eyes. He looked over his shoulder again,and the bear was even closer. His heart was pumping frantically and he tried to run even faster. He tripped and fell to the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear, right on top of him: reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the atheist cried out "Oh my God!...." Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. Even the river stopped moving. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky: "You deny my existence for all of these years; teach others I don't exist; and, even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?" The atheist looked directly into the light: "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps could you make the bear a Christian?" "Very well," the voice said. The light went out. The river ran again. And the sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear dropped its right paw ........ brought both paws together .... bowed its head and spoke: "Lord, for this food which I am about to receive, I am truly thankful."


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Nobody's good enough, smart enough, cute enough, or successful enough to be acceptable to a just and holy God. But when He looks at us through the eyes of Jesus, we become pleasing in His sight. Jesus is the answer!

[quote]The WWII war was in self-defense... there was an active enemy stricking us which needed to be stopped. It is a legal way of murder.You can never justify killing by killing.. You can only justify killing by stopping it. Killing them does not undo their crime.there is always a chance of an innocent person being killed.Being wrong or right is relative. Relative to their time they were doing what they believed was right. They were uncivilized. We are now a civilized society. We have evolved past eye-for-an-eye.if Capital punishment was such a good idea - why hasn't it worked in Americaand you are.............? was i talking to you? Or u just think you fit the description? if so,NAZ is doing a great Job telling you like it is, so, there is no point for me to add any thing…

I PUT MY ANSWER ON THE QUOTE BREAK. THANX.