[quote="miller"]i only said, the bible should be the superme source of anything spiritual. and our so-called "sacred Tradition" must be subjected to the scriptures. quote]
are you sure about that??? This should only be true for Christian believers right? What if I am not christian, what if I am a Buddist, Hindu or a believer of an indigenous spirit?
Its just to make a comment on this, but i am gettin my religion 101 education in this thread and enjoying it. Continue.....


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"አትቅና!!! :ሥራ!!!" - A motto popular in Addis.

I very much agree with you on this. I think the 1st step to continue a discussion and learn from eachother is to respect eachother and not attack eachother. Disagreeing is something else and attacking someone's character or Id or religion is another thing.


are you sure about that??? This should only be true for Christian believers right? What if I am not christian, what if I am a Buddist, Hindu or a believer of an indigenous spirit?
Its just to make a comment on this, but i am gettin my religion 101 education in this thread and enjoying it. Keep the conversation going....


_________________
"አትቅና!!! :ሥራ!!!" - A motto popular in Addis.

just to share....

You know what the bible says there are so many ways ppl try to reach God or get to God. People try so many different ways take different road all to get to God... or we find ppl tryin to find shortcut to God..but the bible Jesus is the only way and nobody comes to the father(God) except to him. It's as simple as believin in Jesus.. he died for us so we can (metarek) with God. he was crusified he payed the price for our sins. You know what ever we did...what ever sin we commited when we ask for forgiveness is washed...not coverd washed gone blank paper. ain't is amazing. Have you ever seen a snow...when it snows it covers everything...even the ugliest places look so beautful coverd with the snow. thas how God's blood washes us... (oh the blood of jesus that washes white as snow (if ya'll heard the song b4)) when we believe in Jesus we are a new creation...our old self dies and our goal should be like christ with the help of the holy spirit ofcouce

my point... we are all bought by the blood of Jesus... the price has been payed for each and everyone of us wheter we blieve it or not.... the choice ours to accept it or not. enaa what am sayin our goal should be to share the goodnews/ the gospel for those who hasn't heard enji wuts the point of aruguing...within ourself we need to let our light shinee. Don't we know HE that lives in us is greater than that is in the world.

and


umm if your talkin about the pentes''' believe me they believe in the holy trinity God the father God the son God the Holy Spirit.


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Nobody's good enough, smart enough, cute enough, or successful enough to be acceptable to a just and holy God. But when He looks at us through the eyes of Jesus, we become pleasing in His sight. Jesus is the answer!

Quote:

are you sure about that??? This should only be true for Christian believers right? What if I am not christian, what if I am a Buddist, Hindu or a believer of an indigenous spirit?
Its just to make a comment on this, but i am gettin my religion 101 education in this thread and enjoying it. Keep the conversation going....

of course, God intended everything to be seen in the light of his written word. but i undestand where you are coming from. when i said the bible should be supreme for anything spritual, here i was talking to other christian. but God also revealed himself in nature so that other people to get to know him too. but his revelation in nature is consistent with his revelation in the bible. so when the bible talks in general about all human nature, not just the christian one.

What about the people who did not know Jesus? For example, the people of the North and South Americas did not know anything about Jesus before the Europeans came and introduced Christianity. Isn't God the God of every human?

i totally understand your question. but let us start by the definintion of what the christian God is. He is all loving-, all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect and just, he can do all things. he revealed himself in the scripture in the old testment and revealed himself in jesus christ. those who accept christ will be saved and enjoy him forever in heaven. but what about those that never heard of the good news of Jesus? are they going to be damned forever? not really. the bible teach us that God's law not only revealed in the scripture but also in nature. for example, if there is one God (which the bible teaches) and most people in rural area in africa that never heard of him died, he will judge them justly. (remember we said God is just and perfect) therefore, by definition everything he does is perfect. so, we rightly assume that he will do what is right in the judgment day. if that person responds to God's law in nature and recognize who God is then he will be saved. but to those who heard christ and rejected them ...there is no way to get them back because christ and the the law put by God in our heart witness to each other. (they both were given by the same God.) therefore, all of those people who never heard of christ won't be damned. God uses a different standard to judge them. he judged them according to their conscious whether they acknowledge him or not.

You are absolutly right. In fact, it was Word that became the physical universe. The bible says that it was first Word. So in a sense all of nature is God's Word. Including you and I; we are all the Word of God in motion.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
-------------

You answer very good, but I still have a question about the issue of Jesus being the only way. These people who did not know about Christianity still had access to God. Because he is not going to punish them for something that they did not even know. He is not an unjust Father. So, this means that these people were never in any danger. And in principle you must first be in danger before you can be saved... Therefore why would they need a savior?

So this leads me into another point - Perhaps we have completly mis-understood what Jesus meant. Perhaps we do not know what it meaans to be "saved." When Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” what did he really mean? Jesus often spoke in parable and metaphors; so I want to explore the concept of "the way." By doing my best not to offend anybody, let me throw out my theory and see what you think about it…

Jesus said “I am” and “through me.” But what does “I am” and “through me” mean? “I am” or the great “I am” is believed to be the first Word of the Universe. His claim into self-realization into existance. The Word that created all things… In the old-testament God refers to himself as this Great “I am.” So the “I am” refers to God. And the bible tells us that this great “I am” resides in the bodies of men and women. “Ye are the temples of the living father.” Corinthians 6:16 tells us that it is inside our bodies where God resides. Therefore, Perhaps Jesus may have been talking about the principle of “me” as in the process of self-discovery into finding the father who is inside of us? If this is the case what is “me?” Perhaps "Me" can be the principal of the self-discovery of finding ourselves, knowing ourselves and reach englithment/salvation.

The enlightened one is he who realizes himself; and if one realizes self; he would have to discover what is inside of him – and what is inside of him is the source of the Universe – the Word, or the Great I AM which is the same power Jesus refers to as “the father.” So, if “me” is the principle Jesus sets forth for us; then he may not have been literally talking about “himself” as a man in flesh; but rather the process of finding our Universal Source, ourself, and thereby God. So basically reaching God is by accessing our inside through ourselves - "me". Is there another way of finding God, unless we go inside of self? If there is not another way, then truly "Me" as declared by Christ must be the only way to the Father.

It is heartening to witness how the religion of the West (Pentecostal etc.) got deep rooted into the Ethiopians and its ancient religion (Orthodox) and creating such chaos amongst the people of this generation. This is what you call an act of the devil.

[quote="miller"]
Where in the Bible does it say He judges differently? I really want to know. God does not favor, nor will he use different way of judgment, unless you can inform me that it says so in the Bible.

miller wrote:


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IN GOD WE TRUST!

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

....second try.

It is heartening to witness how the religion of the West (Pentecostal etc.) got deep rooted into the Ethiopians and its ancient religion (Orthodox) and creating such chaos amongst the people of this generation. This is what you call an act of the devil.

[quote="miller"]
Where in the Bible does it say He judges differently? I really want to know. God does not favor, nor will he use different way of judgment, unless you can inform me that it says so in the Bible.

miller wrote:

Miller, you are definitely missing something, or someone has been falsely teaching you that Orthodox do not follow the scripture. I said it before, and I am saying again - in cap's this time, ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX RELIGION/TRADITION/CULTURE/SERVICEIS BASED ON THE BIBLE. Tell me one act that we do in church that is not Biblical? What are you against of, that you think is not in the scripture?

I wont pass by saying, to Naz: I applaud your integrity and deep knowledge of the Orthodox. I admire your educated responses. It is rewarding to know that there are people like you that will/can educate others that might not have had the ability to learn the true teaching of Orthodox.


_________________
IN GOD WE TRUST!

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

first of all salvation presupposes to be saved from something. so we are saved from what? we are saved from God's wrath. we are by nature are enemies of God. we are inclined to do evil. we do not obey our consciouse which is the voice of God. God reveals himself in the scripture for those who had the access. and for those who do not have any access he speaks to them in a way they can hear him so that they can seek him and find him. for example, he might speak to them through other christian, preist , or pastor. he brings them to the place where they can not say "Lord i never knew that you were existed" becasue God said in the book of Romans that because man can see God's through nature and "they refuse acknowledg him. so they are without EXCUSE" (for further reading Romans 1) therefore, God speaks in a different ways.
God will punish everybody. he says it clearly that , everybody is a sinner. everybody is fall short of the glroy of God. they violated God's commandment. if everybody is created by God then they all turned their back on him. that's why we need christ. God in a human flesh. God is by defintion a just God. and all loving God. he does not tolerate sin. therefore, every sin must deserves punishment. if he does not punish people then he compromise his own word. which the bible says "he can't do it. he can not lie nor he repent, nor he change his mind. " God can not change his nature, which means he is just. at the same time, he is all-loving. therefore, our of the goodness of his heart....he paid the price for our sin. by punishing jesus for us. (who knew no sin, become sin for us) so the judgment and the mercy of God were displayed at the same time at the cross. (that's where we understand that no one can escape from God's judgment except through christ)

now, you can ask what about those people who lived in the old testment era? in what ways are they going to be saved? well...the old testment people were saved by faith. they put their faith in the messiaha who was to come in the future. they were looking AHEAD. but for us, we look BACK at the calvery. so the old testment and the new testment have in common. the old testment looked forward to christ. the new testment looked back at the cross and got their salvation.



Jesus is the most important figure in all of human history. He is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), physically risen from the dead, Lord (Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21) and Savior (Acts 5:30-32). He came to die for sinners (Rom. 5: to remove the separation between God and sinners and to remove the wrath of God upon us.
I ask you, are you a sinner? Have you ever lied, stolen, lusted, coveted, or been angry with someone unjustly? Have you ever offended God in any way? If so, then you have sinned. Your sin is against God because you have broken His law. Also, because He is infinite, your offense to Him is infinite. You are not capable of appeasing an infinite God because you are a sinner. Nothing you can do can undo the damage caused by your sins.
The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). That means that your sins have caused a separation between you and God (Isaiah 59:2) and the result is death (Rom. 6:23) and wrath (Eph. 2:3). The only way out, is to be saved by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1). You must trust in what Jesus did on the cross to forgive you of your sins and not trust anything else, not even your own sincerity or works.
Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). [size=18]He is the only way to the God the Father ([/size]John 14;6). He alone reveals God (Matt. 11:27). He has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:1. It is only through Him that you can be saved from God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). He can forgive you of your sin (Luke 5:20; Matt. 9:2). He can remove the guilt that is upon your soul. Jesus can set you free from the bondage of sin that blinds your eyes, weakens your soul, and brings you to despair. He can do this because He bore sin in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24) that those who trust in Him would be saved.
Jesus is the One you need.
If you are not a Christian, and want to be delivered from the consequence of your sin, which is damnation, then come to the One who loves you. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:2. Turn from your sins. Believe in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior (John 1:12). Ask Jesus to forgive you, to come into your heart, and to wash you clean from your sins. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.
He will.

now be easy!! stop attacking me. i only make a theological statement. i did not say anything bad about you, nor orthodox people. i said, if you calim to be a christian, the bible should be the supreme source of anything spiritual. tradition should be subjected to the bible. (that's all. if that makes me an act of the devil.....then what does that make you????)






"For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; "

Romans 2-(11-12) here, it talks about the laws of God. those who never heard of the law of moses or in this case christ....this is the how God will judge them.




nope. i was orthodox before. so i know it by myself. nobody has taught me.






i did not say that. i suggest you should go back and look what i said. i said, MOST of the sacred tradition of orthodox chruch is unbiblical. it can be based on the bible. but not all of it. i also made a distinction between holy tradition which is supported by the bible and unbiblical traidition which also not supported by the bible. (even to say that my tradition is based on the bible...shows that the bible is above the sacred TRadition which orthdox deny)





i do too. NAZ. good job with the good work. but langano please don't try to bring your own social agenda to the table and calls people the work fo the devil. that shows that you are not ready to carry an honest, intelligent theological debate. if you want me to list the theological problem i have with orthdox then i will be glad to do it. but, please no name calling.

[/quote]

Miller, you have the tendency to contradict yourself and say things that have not been said. Don't put words in my mouth. I ain't attacking you, nor did I call you or any religion the devil. I have no reason to do so.

I will reiterate since you obviously did not understand; ......the act of us arguing about a religion is devilish. The devil loves us being different. That is the only way he can instigate - for lack of better word, causing nonsense justification for the indifference, such as put forth on this trend by you. We need to be smart enought to get rid of these chaos. Again, to put it in lemons term, our difference in religion was brought forth to our land (beloved Ethiopia) recently, not even 100years ago when the creator of the Pentecostal forefathers created the religon Peneteocstal. After generation, it spread to Africa and here we are arguing about it, and that my friend, has created for the devil to laugh at us, and our Lord to 'mazen'.

You need to re-read what I wrote above.

Anyhow, you stated again
Like I asked, what is not unbiblical? Name me one, if not two.

Nevertheless, I just read Romans 2: 11-12. it does not say anything about diffrent judgment for belivers. It states different judgment between believers (followers) and non-believers (non followers).Read Romans 2 7-10: " 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile"
I might be missing something.

Anyhow, what actually interesting me now is, if I may, you said you used to be Orthodox, why did you change your religion? Just curious.


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IN GOD WE TRUST!

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

you said that the act of us arguing is devilish. well...i disagree in part. i don't think we should argue but debate. i believe debate is a good thing. in fact it is a virtue.

even though we both call ourselves a christian, we have things in common. at the same time we have something not in common. in my other thread i was trying to point of the things we are not in common about. they may not be very important to you, but i believe they are very serious important if we want to be a student of a bible.

these are the things i disagree with the Orthodox theology.
first orthodox believe that baptism saves them. they believe that baptism is the first cheif sacrement of forgivness of sins because it unites us with christ.
second, justification is granted for us by baptism.

thrid, don't believe that salvationi is by faith alone. and by grace alone.

fourth, salvation by good works.

fifth,truth are not only drived from the holy scripture alone but also from tradition.

six, a reenacment of of the sacrifice of christ on the cross in a cermony performed by a priest.

seven, the orthodox rjects the whole biblcal concept of inherieted (impute)guilt.

eight, The hold that they are the one true church of Christ on earth, which alone has guarded right belief and true worship in absolute identity and unbroken succession with the apostolic church. In other words, Evangelicals have lapsed from the true faith into error, if not outright heresy, according to Orthodox believers. The salvation of non-Orthodox is, therefore, in question.

nine, Orthodox hold to baptismal regeneration - no one can be saved unless he is baptized with water.

ten, orthodox reject Sola Scriptura. Orthodoxy affirms a single source of revelation, holy tradition, of which Scripture is the preeminent among several forms. The other forms of tradition include the first seven ecumenical councils, patristic writings, especially those of the first four centuries; later councils; icons; the Liturgy; and canon law. The Protestant view which raises Scripture above tradition as final authority in matters of doctrine is considered by Orthodox as a sin.

eleven, Veneration given to icons. for ex, ( st, george, the 44 tabot) For the Orthodox, icons have always been a part of church tradition so this tradition is considered on par with Scripture.




also, i did not say different judgment for believers. what NAZ was asking what about those who NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST. who are they going to be judged. i think the verse answers that question. meaning, THOSE WHO NEVER HEARD THE LAW, WILL BE JUDGED APART FROM THE LAW. AND THOSE WHO DO, WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW. (i think that's what the verse is saying. ) but let me know what you got out of it.

Good morning, Miller. This is what I call a good educational debate. Okay, my turn, ...below is the theology of EOC by EOC, copied from the medhanyalme website (www.medhanyalemdc.org). They have put it well. I have even added other reasoning, that you did not want to mention, that a lot of pentecostal are against about.

Note: They are all based on the bible. Please study/read each scripture quotes as explained.


TEWAHIDO

The word “Tewahido” is the Ethiopian term (meaning “made one”) which is the best expression conveying the faith of the Church, since it emphasizes the inseparable unity of the Godhead and manhood in the Person of Christ. The Church’s official title is “The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Bete Christian”.

OUR BELIEVE

We believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, the one Son of the Father, who was with Him before the Creation of the world. Light begotten of Light, True God begotten of True God, not created. He is equal with the Father. There is nothing in heaven and earth that exists without Him. Mt. 3:17, Jn. 1.1:4. For us and for the salvation of human He came down from heaven; by the operation of the Holy Spirit He put on flesh of the holy Virgin Mary and became man. In the time of Pontius Pilate He was crucified for us suffered and died and was buried. On the third day He was separated from the dead and rose. With glory He ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of His Father, and He shall come again in honor and glory that He may judge the living and the dead, and there is no finish, no end of His Kingdom. Mat. 1:20-21, 1pet. 3:18; Phil. 2.6-8; Rom. 5.8; Cor. 15: 3-4; 1Pet. 3:19-20. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord who saves, He who proceeds from the Father; together with the Father and the son we worship Him, we honor Him, we glorify Him. We believe in one Holy church, which is over all, the assembly and congregation of the Apostles, Eph. 2:19,20,22. We believe in one Baptism, that it was given for the forgiveness of sin. Eph. 4: 3-6, Ps. 32:1-2, Eph. 1:6. And believing in the resurrection of the dead, we hope for everlasting life to come. 1Cor. 15: 22-24; Jn. 10:27-28.

The dogmas we believe are contained in this symbol of the Faith. No one has any right to add to or take from it. Other dogmas are contained in the dogmatic definitions of the Third Council in Ephesus which declared that Christ is one in hypostasis, perfect God and perfect man, is the Son of God, without a mother on the higher plane, and the Son of His Mother without a father on the lower. His ever-Virgin Mother is properly and truly called the Mother of God, as having properly and truly given birth in the flesh to God the Logos.

LITURGY

Sacred Liturgy is the very heart of Ethiopian Orthodox worship. All the various kinds and types of Orthodox prayer and ritual cluster around the Sacrifice of the Mass that was instituted by the Lord the same night in which He was betrayed (1Cor. 11:23-25). The Church of Ethiopia has fourteen Anaphoras, a unique phenomenon in any Christian Church. Each is used on special occasions to mark the observance of a particular holy day. Though the Anaphoras differ in length and content, they have common characteristics. They stress the Incarnation, the Last Supper, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. In principle the Mass is conducted in Ge’ez, the ancient classical and liturgical language of Ethiopia. Today however, the readings and certain portions of the liturgy are in the vernacular, Amharic. The congregation, both men and women, may join in the singing.

When presiding over liturgy, in addition to the celebrant (main priest) and at least one other priest, the presence of three deacons is required.

ANGELS

Angels are from among those who were created on the Sunday (Jubilee 2:6-. The Holy Bible says that angels are made from fire and wind (3 Mac. 2:10-11). Angels do not reproduce but remain as they were originally created. They are by nature thinking, speaking, living and powerful. They are free from affliction of sickness and death. Their number is not limited. They are divided into orders and chieftainship. They were divided in one hundred orders and into ten heavenly places. Angels are close aides to God. They are always by His throne praising Him (Rev. 4:8-11). They are fast in their service (Ps. 103:4, Heb. 1:6). They ascend and descend between God and man (Jn. 1:52, Heb. 1:14). When generally explained the role of Angels can be said:

o To minister between man and God
o To present man’s prayers, alms and offerings to God.
o To bring God’s mercy and bounty to men (Dan. 9:20-22, Lk. 1:13, Acts 10:3-5)
o To bring before God the soul of men after death. (Lk. 16:22, Sutu. Ez. 6:6-20)
o To unfailingly guard every creature (Mt. 18:10, Dan. 4:13)
o They are sent for exacting mercy or wrath (Rom. 9:22)
o They are sent to bring solace and help in times of suffering and hardship
(Acts 12:7-11, Ps. 89:7)
o They are sent to separate the sinners from the righteous when the world comes to
an end (Mt. 24:31, Rev. 7:1-4).

The notable seven Archangels are:

1. St. Mikael
2. St. Gebriel
3. St. Rufael
4. St. Uriel
5. St. Ramuel
6. St. Phanuel
7. St. Raguel


SAINTS

Our church believes in the ancient custom of honoring the heroic servants of God but it does not offer them the adoration, which befits God. It has on its list of known saints hundreds of names – men and women. The saints are chosen friends of God; they are souls that have served Him well. They are deserving of our homage, because of their holiness. They are united to us, we honor them and they pray for us. They present our prayers to the Almighty and unite them to their own; we honor them with religious homage in order that thereby we may obtain the assistance of those beloved friends of God. When we offer homage to them, when we build churches and institute feasts in their honor, we are not depriving God of adoration, we are adoring Him the more because we are honoring the results of the work of His grace.

We have a prodigious number of saints and martyrs in the Church and every day has a saint. Among the Saints the most celebrated are St. George, St. Kerstos Semra, Abune Tekle Haimanot, St. Yared, St. Lalibela, St. Iyesus Moa, Gabra Manfes Qiddus, John the Baptist, the Apostles, …etc. According to the Ethiopian culture each family has its own patron saint or angel whose feast it celebrates every year both in church and at home when friends and neighbors are invited.

THE VENERATION OF IMAGES (ICONS)

The veneration of images (icons) is a part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church tradition. But this veneration is directed not to the images as such, but to the holy persons whom they portray. The Orthodox venerates flat, two-dimensional icon; they do not pray to three-dimensional statues because these representations may be too realistic and may become in themselves idols of veneration. Images of our Blessed Virgin Mother, Her Son Jesus Christ, the Apostles, the angels and saints are not worshipped at all. The Orthodox adores no one but God. The image of the person venerated is honored only as a means for directing and increasing our homage and veneration towards that person and through him to God by whose grave he became what he was. We do not adore the figure of the sacred cross. Offerings of incense and light are given to the figure of the cross, to the holy books of the gospels, and to other sacred objects in order to do them an honor that passes to the person represented. By kissing or uncovering heads to the images of Christ, the Cross, the Virgin Mother of God and other saints we adore Christ and honor His mother and saints and angels.

There are many pictures in the Ethiopian Churches. There may be seen St. George with his horse, St. Michael with his wings, and St. Mary with Her Baby, and Christ hanging from the cross. These holy pictures are hung on walls in most homes and reverently kissed. A picture of Adam and Eve in the garden and of the Emperor, will be found in many churches. In each church also there is of necessity a picture of the Tabot according to the name of the saint.



I hear ya on this one. Thanks.


_________________
IN GOD WE TRUST!

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

man...I gotta print this out and read it at home. ain't no way I can respond to this discussion on the fly...I got sit and let this simmer


but you know what....I'm discussing with the priests at my church in Houston about developing an entire curriculum for Sunday school. We have brought up many topics for the curriculum and we are now trying to come up with a way to package it into classes and an integrated program for all ages (K-12).